Perhaps one of the unintended consequences of this belief system is that the parents of children who do follow the prescribed Christian path leave the others behind. This was certainly my experience as a parent who saw none of the teen leaders reaching out to my teenage son after his summer bible studies in which he chose not to be baptized.
This whole system of their so-called “correct” Christianity, in my mind, lacks love and empathy our very human and often fragile teens. This system is dangerous, ungodly, and very damaging.
I have said numerous times in this space and elsewhere that I am so grateful I left the church when my kids were 6 and 3. My legalism and fear, especially in this area, would have DESTROYED them. With the Laings leading our congregation, their certainty that they knew exactly how to raise children reigned supreme. I know parents who lament how they raised their children and see the damage. Fortunately, I was able to explore questions of faith and how life works BESIDE my children rather than preaching AT them and saw them as individuals. I still implemented some of the "obey" and "be happy" in the early years, but after the age of 5 saw how limited that was. I am so lucky to have great relationships with both my kids to this day.
There is so much wisdom to take in here, thank you for sharing it. Parenting naturally comes with fear, so it makes sense that people would hold tightly to anything that seems to offer clear direction in raising their children. While parents will inevitably make mistakes, as Christians we also believe there is always room for repentance and growth. Many times in my own parenting, I felt guided and corrected by the Holy Spirit, and I truly can’t emphasize that enough. I believe that posture of humility played a big role in the healthy relationship we now have with our children who grew up in the church. It takes humility to acknowledge when change is needed as a parent, and I’m deeply grateful that our children responded with openness and grace.
We didn't follow 'their' system as we had two kids on the spectrum. If you have read my comments here, you know I was often a 'fly in the ointment', but I was also effective, respected by many, and they didn't know what to do with me, so I still served in many capacities.
Even for us, it didn't make a difference. The wilder, out of control, rebellious more autistic child became a Christian suddenly out of nowhere when he was 19. He struggles a lot, but he still believes. He still understands the Christ is the right way even though he doesn't always understand it, and as an autistic man-child, has so many difficulties controlling emotion and not chasing a dopamine hit.
The youngest, who was always well-behaved and not easily identified as being on the spectrum, is intellectually brilliant and even emotionally intelligent. He stands off from becoming a Christian. He disagrees with so much of the experience and wants little to do with it. He is respectful to his parents' faith and how we live, but even disagrees with some of our positions. Won't read the Bible, won't let anyone help him to understand things, and isn't budging on any of this anytime soon. He will come to church with us, and listen to the sermons, but openly question the ways of God (not fair, not all loving, etc.)
It's heartbreaking. We know there are ways we failed. We can see also where the church did some damage. But the church did far more damage to the oldest and he still is fine, yet without a faith that mirrors the ICOC. His girlfriend, also autistic, also from the old Church, got baptized this past year. Had to teach her a lot to escape the thought patterns.
Some of their peer group that left the church are all practicing Christians; each of them were kids that had struggling family situations. Yet those kids in their peer groups with 'stable' families in the church, are not Disciples in the church.
I say all this, to say this. There is no formula. Just faith and relationships. Don't trust in results, rather keep the relationships and trust in Him. I mean he found many of us in the worst of circumstances, why not our children? And it isn't faith if it isn't exercised. I know this is hard, I'm living it and have had to in many other areas of my life.
My husband and I left the ICOC around 34 years ago. We had been in ministry for many years, chose to leave ministry, and then chose to leave the church altogether. Our main reason for leaving was the fear of losing our kids, who were around 6 and 4 at the time. We had seen many families whose kids had walked away, not just from the church, but from the Lord. I'm so thankful we made that very hard decision back then. We lost a lot of friends, but we gained our kids. A double blessing was choosing to homeschool around the same time. That was one of the best things we ever did for our kids. It bonded us and allowed us to teach them about God and the Bible in a safe environment where they were our priorities. For them, God didn't take us away from them. Unfortunately, the idea that "working hard for God" keeps your kids faithful is a lie. And what is working hard for God anyway? Isn't loving and raising our kids working hard for God? Isn't having a good marriage working hard for God? In the evangelical homeschool movement, which we were a part of for 28 years, we were able to focus on our kids as our most important "ministry." Teaching them, training them, correcting them, but also having a lot of fun with them. Today, all of our kids have chosen to follow God and be part of a church. No two of them is in the same church, but they all go to church. And all of them have talked about homeschooling their kids when they get to that stage. The older grandkids are already being homeschooled. I think the key for our family was teaching our kids to love God rather than to be fearful of God. We need to fear/respect God but not be afraid of Him. Fear is not a good motivation long term. It's not a good long-term motivation for obeying parents and it's not a good long-term motivation for obeying God. When our kids have a proper respect for us and eventually the Lord, and when that's combined with a loving relationship with us and eventually the Lord, there's a much higher chance they will choose to follow the Lord. They may still make some of the dumb mistakes we made before becoming Christians, but they'll know their way home. Like the prodigal son, they'll know there's a loving forgiving Father to go home to. As for corporal punishment, we do believe in it. It's in the Bible. But it's how you do it that counts. "Hitting" a kid because you're mad at them for not doing what you want them to do is completely different to lovingly giving consequences, without anger or an agenda. Punishing a child because they're embarrassing you or annoying you is a terrible motivation. First we have to make sure we're actually walking in the spirit and operating in the spirit before using our authority with our children. Our authority comes from the Lord not from our position as parents.
Ephesians 6:4
And you, fathers, do not provoke your children to wrath, but bring them up in the training and admonition of the Lord.
Lastly, the most important thing we can do for our kids is to pray for them. As parents, we need to pray for them as a couple and as individuals. And the prayer doesn't stop when they become adults. That's when it really starts! Praying for our kids is the best and most wonderful thing we can do for both them and ourselves. It frees us to leave them in God's hands and it reminds us that the Lord loves them way more than we do. When they're straying, He's the only one who can bring them home.
We were in a mainline COC that has since moved to progressive when we had our son. I did still read the “parenting” books; then our son was diagnosed with autism at three. There was little to nothing out there about raising a child with special needs. We are fortunate that our church loves and accepts our son. Were we in a different church environment, I don’t know if that would be the case.
Yes, absolutely. Kids raised in the church are especially vulnerable, though, and do not have another reality to fall back on. At least, I knew a different life before I turned 21, so I had a point of reference. Young people raised in church do not have that.
You make an important distinction here. It reminds me of this concept of "re-parenting oneself" or when adults are finally able to see the good and bad their parents did and then do the work to heal the wounds they may have. But I suppose the difference here is vast, though.
For me, I wasn't even able to see that I was parented differently than others until I was an adult and later was only able to understand more after becoming a parent myself. Being raised in the church is different. Because if they don't experience another church, how can they possibly see that this was just one way of doing it? There's something important here that I'm having trouble grasping at, but it's pointing at the fallibility of humans and that God is much bigger than one church family.
There are plenty of examples in the Bible about parenting, relationships and the consequences of good and poor choices. This morning I looked at the scripture in Proverbs 19:3 "people ruin their lives by their own foolishness and then are angry at the Lord". Why are we surprised at the consequences and choices that our children make, it is reflection of us as parents and it did not happen over night, it is little things, little choices and little decisions that become either consequences or blessing. If we neglect our responsibility as a parents, under the banner of self discovery, self healing, self development, healing the world or other high and mighty calling, God calls it foolishness. Perhaps, honest self reflection is required.
You are absolutely right but this is not what the book talks about. The authors do not address parents’ bad choices; they address the harmful parenting style many of us were taught, which has nothing to do with the Bible or Jesus.
Being the best parent ever and the #1 on-fire Christian does not remove from your child their God given right of freewill. No different to God himself granting freewill to the Angles and a 1/3 of them rebelling, God is the best parent, but with freewill then no cards are off the table.
Do your best, live without hypocrisy, be better people ourselves drawing on strength that is not our own and hopefully what we have taught our children and the positive experiences they have been given in their childhood will call them back when they are older - it happens this way for many.
Best thing you can do for your child is give them the Gift of the Holy Spirit, that is so overlooked. Children having always been included in God’s covenant(s): being circumcised on the 8th day, Paul describing the Exodus from Egypt as ‘baptism’ [1Cor 10:1-2] and we note that the passage says ‘ALL were baptised’, no Israelite children being left out or left behind. So why deny the Gift of the Spirit to children and expect their Spiritual guidance to be better without Him? Still won't mean that they lose their freewill but with the nurturing of a founded-faith, they stand a much better chance of wanting to follow him. Set them up for success not failure.
I'll have to read it. There are no silver bullets to effective parenting. We left in 2003post hkl for a progressive coc, girls were 10,8, 2. They found authentic peer relationships there & were baptised. 2 are church members, my millennial still trying to find her way.
Here is the current icoc parenting program, dont know if it works or not. I assume the authors are your friends Nadine.
Hmmmm, dont take this the wrong way, but begs the question... with your hundreds of testimonials @ abuse of various forms in the icoc... why haven't your best icoc friends, like Karen, publicly stood up to support your cause and validate your stories?
Karen has spoken up privately a lot. She and I are very different in our personalities. If you look at my posts, Karen will often support me in her comments.
Hmmm...without publicly taking a stand for all to see, sounds like your friends are letting u take all the heat. If they agree with you, they should say so. If they are still in the icoc I'd call this cowardice...
Yes, Nadine, I wonder what you think of the Good Enough Parenting program developed by John and Karen Louie (sp?). Are you familiar with it? I have heard them speak and am very impressed by their love and wisdom. We are not using their program in our ministry, but I am planning to encourage the leadership in our region to adopt it, or at least some of the parents. We are raising our grandson, and I will be retired soon, which will give me more time to spend with him and with the young families ministry. He is developing some good friendships here, which an answered prayer. It’s a joy teaching him about Jesus and how loved he is, by us and by God.
I grew up in the traditional COC, and raised my two boys in the ICOC, although my husband left the church very early in our marriage. Now in their 30s, my sons have chosen different paths, but I remain hopeful as I keep praying for them and loving them. We are doing some things differently with our grandson, and realize that he will ultimately make his own choices with his own free will, as we guide him along as best we can.
Thank you for recommending “The Myth of Good Christian Parenting.” The title rings true; I look forward to reading it.
Perhaps one of the unintended consequences of this belief system is that the parents of children who do follow the prescribed Christian path leave the others behind. This was certainly my experience as a parent who saw none of the teen leaders reaching out to my teenage son after his summer bible studies in which he chose not to be baptized.
This whole system of their so-called “correct” Christianity, in my mind, lacks love and empathy our very human and often fragile teens. This system is dangerous, ungodly, and very damaging.
I have said numerous times in this space and elsewhere that I am so grateful I left the church when my kids were 6 and 3. My legalism and fear, especially in this area, would have DESTROYED them. With the Laings leading our congregation, their certainty that they knew exactly how to raise children reigned supreme. I know parents who lament how they raised their children and see the damage. Fortunately, I was able to explore questions of faith and how life works BESIDE my children rather than preaching AT them and saw them as individuals. I still implemented some of the "obey" and "be happy" in the early years, but after the age of 5 saw how limited that was. I am so lucky to have great relationships with both my kids to this day.
There is so much wisdom to take in here, thank you for sharing it. Parenting naturally comes with fear, so it makes sense that people would hold tightly to anything that seems to offer clear direction in raising their children. While parents will inevitably make mistakes, as Christians we also believe there is always room for repentance and growth. Many times in my own parenting, I felt guided and corrected by the Holy Spirit, and I truly can’t emphasize that enough. I believe that posture of humility played a big role in the healthy relationship we now have with our children who grew up in the church. It takes humility to acknowledge when change is needed as a parent, and I’m deeply grateful that our children responded with openness and grace.
We didn't follow 'their' system as we had two kids on the spectrum. If you have read my comments here, you know I was often a 'fly in the ointment', but I was also effective, respected by many, and they didn't know what to do with me, so I still served in many capacities.
Even for us, it didn't make a difference. The wilder, out of control, rebellious more autistic child became a Christian suddenly out of nowhere when he was 19. He struggles a lot, but he still believes. He still understands the Christ is the right way even though he doesn't always understand it, and as an autistic man-child, has so many difficulties controlling emotion and not chasing a dopamine hit.
The youngest, who was always well-behaved and not easily identified as being on the spectrum, is intellectually brilliant and even emotionally intelligent. He stands off from becoming a Christian. He disagrees with so much of the experience and wants little to do with it. He is respectful to his parents' faith and how we live, but even disagrees with some of our positions. Won't read the Bible, won't let anyone help him to understand things, and isn't budging on any of this anytime soon. He will come to church with us, and listen to the sermons, but openly question the ways of God (not fair, not all loving, etc.)
It's heartbreaking. We know there are ways we failed. We can see also where the church did some damage. But the church did far more damage to the oldest and he still is fine, yet without a faith that mirrors the ICOC. His girlfriend, also autistic, also from the old Church, got baptized this past year. Had to teach her a lot to escape the thought patterns.
Some of their peer group that left the church are all practicing Christians; each of them were kids that had struggling family situations. Yet those kids in their peer groups with 'stable' families in the church, are not Disciples in the church.
I say all this, to say this. There is no formula. Just faith and relationships. Don't trust in results, rather keep the relationships and trust in Him. I mean he found many of us in the worst of circumstances, why not our children? And it isn't faith if it isn't exercised. I know this is hard, I'm living it and have had to in many other areas of my life.
My husband and I left the ICOC around 34 years ago. We had been in ministry for many years, chose to leave ministry, and then chose to leave the church altogether. Our main reason for leaving was the fear of losing our kids, who were around 6 and 4 at the time. We had seen many families whose kids had walked away, not just from the church, but from the Lord. I'm so thankful we made that very hard decision back then. We lost a lot of friends, but we gained our kids. A double blessing was choosing to homeschool around the same time. That was one of the best things we ever did for our kids. It bonded us and allowed us to teach them about God and the Bible in a safe environment where they were our priorities. For them, God didn't take us away from them. Unfortunately, the idea that "working hard for God" keeps your kids faithful is a lie. And what is working hard for God anyway? Isn't loving and raising our kids working hard for God? Isn't having a good marriage working hard for God? In the evangelical homeschool movement, which we were a part of for 28 years, we were able to focus on our kids as our most important "ministry." Teaching them, training them, correcting them, but also having a lot of fun with them. Today, all of our kids have chosen to follow God and be part of a church. No two of them is in the same church, but they all go to church. And all of them have talked about homeschooling their kids when they get to that stage. The older grandkids are already being homeschooled. I think the key for our family was teaching our kids to love God rather than to be fearful of God. We need to fear/respect God but not be afraid of Him. Fear is not a good motivation long term. It's not a good long-term motivation for obeying parents and it's not a good long-term motivation for obeying God. When our kids have a proper respect for us and eventually the Lord, and when that's combined with a loving relationship with us and eventually the Lord, there's a much higher chance they will choose to follow the Lord. They may still make some of the dumb mistakes we made before becoming Christians, but they'll know their way home. Like the prodigal son, they'll know there's a loving forgiving Father to go home to. As for corporal punishment, we do believe in it. It's in the Bible. But it's how you do it that counts. "Hitting" a kid because you're mad at them for not doing what you want them to do is completely different to lovingly giving consequences, without anger or an agenda. Punishing a child because they're embarrassing you or annoying you is a terrible motivation. First we have to make sure we're actually walking in the spirit and operating in the spirit before using our authority with our children. Our authority comes from the Lord not from our position as parents.
Ephesians 6:4
And you, fathers, do not provoke your children to wrath, but bring them up in the training and admonition of the Lord.
Lastly, the most important thing we can do for our kids is to pray for them. As parents, we need to pray for them as a couple and as individuals. And the prayer doesn't stop when they become adults. That's when it really starts! Praying for our kids is the best and most wonderful thing we can do for both them and ourselves. It frees us to leave them in God's hands and it reminds us that the Lord loves them way more than we do. When they're straying, He's the only one who can bring them home.
We were in a mainline COC that has since moved to progressive when we had our son. I did still read the “parenting” books; then our son was diagnosed with autism at three. There was little to nothing out there about raising a child with special needs. We are fortunate that our church loves and accepts our son. Were we in a different church environment, I don’t know if that would be the case.
Sounds like a lot of the principles in the book apply to corporate church culture for adults as well.
Yes, absolutely. Kids raised in the church are especially vulnerable, though, and do not have another reality to fall back on. At least, I knew a different life before I turned 21, so I had a point of reference. Young people raised in church do not have that.
You make an important distinction here. It reminds me of this concept of "re-parenting oneself" or when adults are finally able to see the good and bad their parents did and then do the work to heal the wounds they may have. But I suppose the difference here is vast, though.
For me, I wasn't even able to see that I was parented differently than others until I was an adult and later was only able to understand more after becoming a parent myself. Being raised in the church is different. Because if they don't experience another church, how can they possibly see that this was just one way of doing it? There's something important here that I'm having trouble grasping at, but it's pointing at the fallibility of humans and that God is much bigger than one church family.
There are plenty of examples in the Bible about parenting, relationships and the consequences of good and poor choices. This morning I looked at the scripture in Proverbs 19:3 "people ruin their lives by their own foolishness and then are angry at the Lord". Why are we surprised at the consequences and choices that our children make, it is reflection of us as parents and it did not happen over night, it is little things, little choices and little decisions that become either consequences or blessing. If we neglect our responsibility as a parents, under the banner of self discovery, self healing, self development, healing the world or other high and mighty calling, God calls it foolishness. Perhaps, honest self reflection is required.
You are absolutely right but this is not what the book talks about. The authors do not address parents’ bad choices; they address the harmful parenting style many of us were taught, which has nothing to do with the Bible or Jesus.
Being the best parent ever and the #1 on-fire Christian does not remove from your child their God given right of freewill. No different to God himself granting freewill to the Angles and a 1/3 of them rebelling, God is the best parent, but with freewill then no cards are off the table.
Do your best, live without hypocrisy, be better people ourselves drawing on strength that is not our own and hopefully what we have taught our children and the positive experiences they have been given in their childhood will call them back when they are older - it happens this way for many.
Best thing you can do for your child is give them the Gift of the Holy Spirit, that is so overlooked. Children having always been included in God’s covenant(s): being circumcised on the 8th day, Paul describing the Exodus from Egypt as ‘baptism’ [1Cor 10:1-2] and we note that the passage says ‘ALL were baptised’, no Israelite children being left out or left behind. So why deny the Gift of the Spirit to children and expect their Spiritual guidance to be better without Him? Still won't mean that they lose their freewill but with the nurturing of a founded-faith, they stand a much better chance of wanting to follow him. Set them up for success not failure.
Off topic but thought u should see high control abuse in action in the ICC. McKeanism again.....
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c8e59zrxrypo
Yes, I am very aware. The ICC is on another level.
Nothing ever changes, same wolf - new clothes.
I'll have to read it. There are no silver bullets to effective parenting. We left in 2003post hkl for a progressive coc, girls were 10,8, 2. They found authentic peer relationships there & were baptised. 2 are church members, my millennial still trying to find her way.
Here is the current icoc parenting program, dont know if it works or not. I assume the authors are your friends Nadine.
https://goodenoughparenting.com/about/
Karen Louis is my best friend. For any parenting program, the test is in the long term.
Hmmmm, dont take this the wrong way, but begs the question... with your hundreds of testimonials @ abuse of various forms in the icoc... why haven't your best icoc friends, like Karen, publicly stood up to support your cause and validate your stories?
Karen has spoken up privately a lot. She and I are very different in our personalities. If you look at my posts, Karen will often support me in her comments.
Hmmm...without publicly taking a stand for all to see, sounds like your friends are letting u take all the heat. If they agree with you, they should say so. If they are still in the icoc I'd call this cowardice...
Yes, Nadine, I wonder what you think of the Good Enough Parenting program developed by John and Karen Louie (sp?). Are you familiar with it? I have heard them speak and am very impressed by their love and wisdom. We are not using their program in our ministry, but I am planning to encourage the leadership in our region to adopt it, or at least some of the parents. We are raising our grandson, and I will be retired soon, which will give me more time to spend with him and with the young families ministry. He is developing some good friendships here, which an answered prayer. It’s a joy teaching him about Jesus and how loved he is, by us and by God.
I grew up in the traditional COC, and raised my two boys in the ICOC, although my husband left the church very early in our marriage. Now in their 30s, my sons have chosen different paths, but I remain hopeful as I keep praying for them and loving them. We are doing some things differently with our grandson, and realize that he will ultimately make his own choices with his own free will, as we guide him along as best we can.
Thank you for recommending “The Myth of Good Christian Parenting.” The title rings true; I look forward to reading it.
Yes, I am very familiar with it.