Thank You again, Nadine, you are helping me and inspiring me as I navigate difficult choices that I must make. I'm reading (still) Invisible Jesus. I want to be prepared for some challenging conversations that must be had and decisions that must be made to be true to Jesus and to figure what do I really believe about Him. In one of Marty Soloman's lessons he says "if my faith doesn't change the way I live, what good is it ? Even the demons on the hillside that day believed." For decades I have felt something wasn't right. Thank you for being a voice that won't be silenced. Thankfully Jesus is there for those who earnestly seek Him. The line between Jesus and the church got blurry for me but because of you and many others including the Holy Spirit, I and we will stay on the path. Oh yeah, I found out that I can trust my gut ; )
Where is God in all of this(I want to scream)....I believe there are 3 factions of the ICOC now... that says enough....The movie "The Mission" where the Catholic Church justified the killing of innocent natives.... many had converted but were not in step with the higher ups....I cried watching that movie and cry when I see these things happen like NDA'S... and we wonder why so many people don't want to belong to a church....is there any fear of God with leadership? Sad
Assuming we mean specifically paid officers of the church, I imagine a reasonable argument for an NDA could be to protect the privacy of church members who’ve confessed sin or shared intimate details of their lives to ministers, in the pursuit of spiritual counselling etc. But that isn’t the object of disclosure which I think you’re pointing out Nadine. I imagine the result of some NDAs is unresolved and hence ongoing toxicity and dysfunction within the org. And maintaining control without proper oversight or accountability. Of course there’s the worst case scenario of concealing sin and crimes - which as you’ve intimated, NDA’s cannot enforce. I think they mainly lead to maintaining status quo and you’ve stated, silence. Good question to ask.
Of the church and non-profits. We all know that confidentiality is usually not respected. We all talk freely about people's personal lives. I know that. I have done it too. These NDAs are reputation damage control. In the worst cases, it is cover-up.
All fair. I reckon the NDA is mainly concerned with public declaration or sharing of info rather than person to person, no? Whether a blog, news article or something of the like, versus a personal conversation?
Ya. I was just attempting to provide a reasonable rationale where an NDA could make sense. I was told, though I can’t verify, by a church board chair that the local authorities required confidentiality for employees. Now, I am sure crime doesn’t fall into that category and some interpretation of the law comes into play. All said, I agree with you - but also imagine that any legal entity must comply with certain laws. That said, if a church is doing what it should, there should be nothing to hide, especially as leaders are held to a higher standard of accountability, but in practice in our fellowship, the members were held thusly, and the leaders often gave each other ‘special treatment’, leniency or cover.
One thought I had was when Paul was fighting so hard for unity with Galatians and some of his other letters.... And I realized that there was a famine in Judea that got allowed. It felt like kind of a parallel. That disunity could become not theological or nebulous or ethereal, but extremely personal and financial/ survival survival - it seemed likely that the members of the Judean Church would be basically dependent upon the offering that is taken in the New testament, which is a free will offering and that their free will would be hindered if they felt judged or condemned or disunified or whatever. I have a friend that left the icoc eventually and he expressed empathy and understanding two people that started ministry in college and may not have a bunch of employable skills and subconsciously or otherwise they are trying to provide for their families. A harsh or judgmental way to put it would be that they're grabbing for power or something like that, but perhaps a kind charitable way to put it would be that they're doing the best they can to provide for their families. And of course perhaps it's somewhere in between sometimes - everyone has sin. Sometimes I'm tempted to look down on people that have different weaknesses than me and then I think what I really want someone else I care about to have my exact sinful nature :)
No, I resigned and said I was not signing anything or taking any money. So the topic never came up since I was proactive. I told my employer before the topic came up. I hope that makes sense. And btw my employer liked me. They did not want me to resign. They tried to get me to stay, although they knew I wouldn’t. I had been open about my reasons.
NDAs in the church are a disgrace.
I agree. It’s befuddling.
Thank You again, Nadine, you are helping me and inspiring me as I navigate difficult choices that I must make. I'm reading (still) Invisible Jesus. I want to be prepared for some challenging conversations that must be had and decisions that must be made to be true to Jesus and to figure what do I really believe about Him. In one of Marty Soloman's lessons he says "if my faith doesn't change the way I live, what good is it ? Even the demons on the hillside that day believed." For decades I have felt something wasn't right. Thank you for being a voice that won't be silenced. Thankfully Jesus is there for those who earnestly seek Him. The line between Jesus and the church got blurry for me but because of you and many others including the Holy Spirit, I and we will stay on the path. Oh yeah, I found out that I can trust my gut ; )
... if my faith doesn't change the way I live, what good is it ...
Can you imagine Jesus teaching a lesson on the value of an NDA?
The Pharisees, yes!
I would think Jesus would have more important things to do - like heal others.
People who set up their own rules are living by fear and dont set others free.
Love is powerful, fear makes people weak.
NDA’s don’t protect church, they protect abuser’s paychecks.
Where is God in all of this(I want to scream)....I believe there are 3 factions of the ICOC now... that says enough....The movie "The Mission" where the Catholic Church justified the killing of innocent natives.... many had converted but were not in step with the higher ups....I cried watching that movie and cry when I see these things happen like NDA'S... and we wonder why so many people don't want to belong to a church....is there any fear of God with leadership? Sad
I share your feelings.
"Are we not supposed to have integrity and tell the truth?"
Silence is complicity.
Agree
Assuming we mean specifically paid officers of the church, I imagine a reasonable argument for an NDA could be to protect the privacy of church members who’ve confessed sin or shared intimate details of their lives to ministers, in the pursuit of spiritual counselling etc. But that isn’t the object of disclosure which I think you’re pointing out Nadine. I imagine the result of some NDAs is unresolved and hence ongoing toxicity and dysfunction within the org. And maintaining control without proper oversight or accountability. Of course there’s the worst case scenario of concealing sin and crimes - which as you’ve intimated, NDA’s cannot enforce. I think they mainly lead to maintaining status quo and you’ve stated, silence. Good question to ask.
Of the church and non-profits. We all know that confidentiality is usually not respected. We all talk freely about people's personal lives. I know that. I have done it too. These NDAs are reputation damage control. In the worst cases, it is cover-up.
All fair. I reckon the NDA is mainly concerned with public declaration or sharing of info rather than person to person, no? Whether a blog, news article or something of the like, versus a personal conversation?
I think all of it.
Ya. I was just attempting to provide a reasonable rationale where an NDA could make sense. I was told, though I can’t verify, by a church board chair that the local authorities required confidentiality for employees. Now, I am sure crime doesn’t fall into that category and some interpretation of the law comes into play. All said, I agree with you - but also imagine that any legal entity must comply with certain laws. That said, if a church is doing what it should, there should be nothing to hide, especially as leaders are held to a higher standard of accountability, but in practice in our fellowship, the members were held thusly, and the leaders often gave each other ‘special treatment’, leniency or cover.
And “are giving” each other special treatment today. One of the reasons I am writing.
One thought I had was when Paul was fighting so hard for unity with Galatians and some of his other letters.... And I realized that there was a famine in Judea that got allowed. It felt like kind of a parallel. That disunity could become not theological or nebulous or ethereal, but extremely personal and financial/ survival survival - it seemed likely that the members of the Judean Church would be basically dependent upon the offering that is taken in the New testament, which is a free will offering and that their free will would be hindered if they felt judged or condemned or disunified or whatever. I have a friend that left the icoc eventually and he expressed empathy and understanding two people that started ministry in college and may not have a bunch of employable skills and subconsciously or otherwise they are trying to provide for their families. A harsh or judgmental way to put it would be that they're grabbing for power or something like that, but perhaps a kind charitable way to put it would be that they're doing the best they can to provide for their families. And of course perhaps it's somewhere in between sometimes - everyone has sin. Sometimes I'm tempted to look down on people that have different weaknesses than me and then I think what I really want someone else I care about to have my exact sinful nature :)
Yes, I don’t judge people who sign NDAs. I just wish those NDAs didn’t exist in the first place.
Sorry for long comment
Totally fine
We're you ever asked to sign an nda while in the icoc?
I write about that in the post. I explain that I resigned on my own terms and didn’t sign.
Okay, but they did ask you to sign one then.
No, I resigned and said I was not signing anything or taking any money. So the topic never came up since I was proactive. I told my employer before the topic came up. I hope that makes sense. And btw my employer liked me. They did not want me to resign. They tried to get me to stay, although they knew I wouldn’t. I had been open about my reasons.
Yes I am familiar with Diane Langberg’s work. Excellent.