CAN A GURL GET A REAL GOSPEL SONG in the US??????????
This perfectly describes how the ICOC (and most mixed churches) is multiracial but hardly multicultural.... after how many decades????????
"The real test is asking our friends around the world"... the colonial, imperialistic, greedy, non-inclusive, & arrogant attitudes and practices are in US churches, too. As said at the Jesus & Justice II Conference (www.csj117.org).... only Blacks & POC suffer in so-called "unity" efforts. White folks/leaders in the ICOC have NOT been willing to change!!!! 💔💔💔💔
Yes - the colonial mindset is still prevalent.
Yes - Fighting against the colonial mindset will take a lot of humility on the part of Western [especially white] Christians.
Yes - Aiming for real partnership is a much better plan, a partnership where we are all equal and learn from one another,
Yes- We need to be culturally aware and respectful.... multiculturally competent.
BUT... the white folks (protecting their power & pockets) and the People of Color (protecting their pockets & white proximity) are UNWILLING. 💔💔💔💔💔
Yes we find this has happened in several Latin American church leadership. No elders oversight after 25 plus years. A church board approves whatever the lead evangelist demands:
Attending or speaking in other countries followed by a family vacation. While COVID rages back home with no government or church support for widows or disabled or those who lost jobs.
Celebrations and retreats at fancy hotels and restaurants that only upper middle class can afford. While widows and disabled depend upon contributions outside the church to meet needs.
Payment of entire retirement for senior evangelist right before COVID hit. Followed by a family vacation in the US.
Leaders of other Central American churches are not going to say anything and US churches providing some oversight or leadership are not asking.
Using speaking as a justification for travel and vacations. You hit a nerve with that one. Lack of oversight through eldership a convenient apathy and urgency to address this.
I am guilty of so much insensitivity and blindness in this area. So much to learn from one another in how we see and experience the world. The ICOC has been extremely dominated by White (corporate) at timed militant American culture. Sometimes in South Africa it felt like battle of the cultures especially in worship. Many other languages and multiple cultural songs incorporated but the deeper work avoided as it's time consuming (time and culture) and difficult ( keep doing what works for "us" but not everyone). If you're not seeing it or feeling it than your church is set to the dominant culture (yours) and you are probably oblivious to the difficulties, discomfort and discrimination others experience.
Yes, the best judges of this are the people who have been subjected to it. As white, especially western people, we cannot say it does not exist. Thank you for your humble comment.
Hmmmm...having never visited a non - US church its difficult to grasp the concept of colonialism in the church. Do you have other source material for this view?
Hi Dave - if you’re open to a book, Theology in the context of World Christianity by Tennant is an option.
I’m no expert re the studies and stats but that perspective could help.
As a Jamaican who experienced the presence of the ICOC in my country, I can say that the structure, practices (like dating), language (‘cotton-picking’) and even people (lots of American leadership - white and otherwise - accents, references etc) had a wide and consistent influence for better and worse.
Back in the day (for the movement I was part of) comms were centralized in the US and Jamaica was part of a world sector headquartered in the US so main leadership and authority was American.
This is where spiritual authority, training and personnel were primarily sourced. We as Jamaicans would even adopt a slightly American slang and accent as the accents from the pulpit - for a while - were primarily American - and certainly many of those with the highest authority and position were so. I think, inadvertently, the American centralized authority led to a dominance of influence - at least for a time. But similar influence is experienced around the world, across denominations - the Western world is the primary source for theological academia, literature and scholarship - though the Global south has become the centre of Christian adherence.
It isn’t wrong that the West plays an important role in theological scholarship, but it becomes wrong when local congregations or believers cannot lead themselves, and develop their own theology, cultural norms around the faith and autonomy of leadership.
CAN A GURL GET A REAL GOSPEL SONG in the US??????????
This perfectly describes how the ICOC (and most mixed churches) is multiracial but hardly multicultural.... after how many decades????????
"The real test is asking our friends around the world"... the colonial, imperialistic, greedy, non-inclusive, & arrogant attitudes and practices are in US churches, too. As said at the Jesus & Justice II Conference (www.csj117.org).... only Blacks & POC suffer in so-called "unity" efforts. White folks/leaders in the ICOC have NOT been willing to change!!!! 💔💔💔💔
Yes - the colonial mindset is still prevalent.
Yes - Fighting against the colonial mindset will take a lot of humility on the part of Western [especially white] Christians.
Yes - Aiming for real partnership is a much better plan, a partnership where we are all equal and learn from one another,
Yes- We need to be culturally aware and respectful.... multiculturally competent.
BUT... the white folks (protecting their power & pockets) and the People of Color (protecting their pockets & white proximity) are UNWILLING. 💔💔💔💔💔
🙏🏾💔👍🏾💔👍🏾💔
Yes we find this has happened in several Latin American church leadership. No elders oversight after 25 plus years. A church board approves whatever the lead evangelist demands:
Attending or speaking in other countries followed by a family vacation. While COVID rages back home with no government or church support for widows or disabled or those who lost jobs.
Celebrations and retreats at fancy hotels and restaurants that only upper middle class can afford. While widows and disabled depend upon contributions outside the church to meet needs.
Payment of entire retirement for senior evangelist right before COVID hit. Followed by a family vacation in the US.
Leaders of other Central American churches are not going to say anything and US churches providing some oversight or leadership are not asking.
There is much more to report.
Two eyewitness accounts back up these claims.
Using speaking as a justification for travel and vacations. You hit a nerve with that one. Lack of oversight through eldership a convenient apathy and urgency to address this.
I believe you, as I have observed similar patterns in other parts of the world.
Multiracial but not multicultural. Yes, I have seen this and I believe you.
I am guilty of so much insensitivity and blindness in this area. So much to learn from one another in how we see and experience the world. The ICOC has been extremely dominated by White (corporate) at timed militant American culture. Sometimes in South Africa it felt like battle of the cultures especially in worship. Many other languages and multiple cultural songs incorporated but the deeper work avoided as it's time consuming (time and culture) and difficult ( keep doing what works for "us" but not everyone). If you're not seeing it or feeling it than your church is set to the dominant culture (yours) and you are probably oblivious to the difficulties, discomfort and discrimination others experience.
Yes, the best judges of this are the people who have been subjected to it. As white, especially western people, we cannot say it does not exist. Thank you for your humble comment.
Hmmmm...having never visited a non - US church its difficult to grasp the concept of colonialism in the church. Do you have other source material for this view?
Hi Dave - if you’re open to a book, Theology in the context of World Christianity by Tennant is an option.
I’m no expert re the studies and stats but that perspective could help.
As a Jamaican who experienced the presence of the ICOC in my country, I can say that the structure, practices (like dating), language (‘cotton-picking’) and even people (lots of American leadership - white and otherwise - accents, references etc) had a wide and consistent influence for better and worse.
Back in the day (for the movement I was part of) comms were centralized in the US and Jamaica was part of a world sector headquartered in the US so main leadership and authority was American.
This is where spiritual authority, training and personnel were primarily sourced. We as Jamaicans would even adopt a slightly American slang and accent as the accents from the pulpit - for a while - were primarily American - and certainly many of those with the highest authority and position were so. I think, inadvertently, the American centralized authority led to a dominance of influence - at least for a time. But similar influence is experienced around the world, across denominations - the Western world is the primary source for theological academia, literature and scholarship - though the Global south has become the centre of Christian adherence.
It isn’t wrong that the West plays an important role in theological scholarship, but it becomes wrong when local congregations or believers cannot lead themselves, and develop their own theology, cultural norms around the faith and autonomy of leadership.
Hope that helps.
Thank you for answering Craig. It is better the answer come from someone who has experienced it personally.