Oh! and one more thing…. as far people “presenting” to be personable, funny, outgoing, charming etc… we’ve known them, right! and how many of them now are being accused of horrific things that were going on behind the scenes! so much for charisma!
These are the wolves in sheep's clothing. Seemingly powerful with large shiny teeth. Seemingly bigger and more important than the other sheep. The thing about wolves that makes them so dangerous though is that they don't know they're wolves.
They used to like saying "Many advisors make victory sure" ~ a play on Proverbs 11:14... issue with that is the 'Advisors' need to actually know & be qualified on what they're advising on. For many issues that you might actually need some guidance, these people were little more then flapping lips, giving advice because it was expected of them, silence would have been the better virtue.
This is another church manipulation tactic that did a number on me, having come in as a young adult who had already been conditioned during my formative years to distrust my own God-given abilities, intelligence, and intuition. Too much to go into here, but decades of this mentality definitely played a huge role in contributing to my nervous breakdown in 2020.
I really want to thank you again for calling all of these things out. Countless former ICOC members will be recovering from its damage for the rest of their lives, and its current leaders and members are either blind to it or don’t care. I agree; very cultish indeed, and most definitely NOT the heart of Jesus. Your words strengthen and encourage me in knowing that we made the right decision to leave, and I pray they are waking other people up!
So sorry it went all the way to a nervous breakdown. Sadly, I have heard too many of these stories. And you are right about the damage. I witness it daily as people reach out to me.
My mind keeps coming back to this because of “likes” on my other comment. I tend to process through things slowly, so I wanted to come back and say something else.
Creating a state of learned helplessness is something narcissistic abusers do to their victims. It’s absolutely an intentional control tactic.
People who have already been subjected to narcissistic abuse (especially as children, from their parents) are easy prey for cults and other organizations that rely on these types of control mechanisms, because they’ve already been pre-programmed to comply.
This is evil, and has no place in any group that claims to be following Jesus. Even if certain local churches have moved away from abusive practices, their reluctance to acknowledge the extent of the harm they’ve caused, as well as their lack of care for their congregants who have been deeply injured in the past, is evidence of lack of godly sorrow, and therefore reflects an absence of true repentance. None of these churches are safe, especially for survivors of childhood abuse.
things like this is why people who grew up in certain households, with overbearing parents, co-dependent relationships, or generally with poor self-image/esteem, were so susceptible to the church's "system". I admit that I was one of those, but at the same time, I was serving in the military with great success and being taught the opposite. To have confidence, to be self-determined, to make decisions, and be someone that frankly, wouldn't back down when he saw things that were wrong, even if it meant I had to argue with the "chain of command". I had some relatively good military leaders along the way, that taught me some good stuff.
Sorry to all those that didn't get this benefit. Or didn't have the stubbornness of an autistic.
Unlike Nadine, I think my default is low self esteem and dependency on approval of others.
I saw how I abdicated my God-given choice to others who are meant to be ‘more righteous than I’.
That’s on me.
But everyone has their own cross to bear. Some need to learn to surrender choices others must learn to own choices - dependent on our deficiencies and strengths. I fall into the latter group.
Re the ICOC I’ve come to see that there were/are sins of leadership and there are sins of the ‘people’.
If leaders were heavy handed and controlling, ‘the people’ willingly elected a king. See Israel and Saul.
This isn’t to say everyone did this. My wife is like Nadine in her self-possession and independent thought, for example.
Just to say that some cultures play into existing mindsets and against others. Not to justify any of the wrongs here, but like Israel, there were times when the leaders led the people into sin, and there were times when the people demanded the entirely wrong thing.
I see these things in the ICOC.
The challenge is maturity. People who can make a godly stance in the face of ungodly leadership and godly leaders who can do the same in the face of ungodly congregational demands.
But if the OT is anything to go by, easier said than done.
omg! HOW IRONIC!!! Our whole family had been in Australia for two weeks for the Millennium ( my wealthy sister in law paid for it…) we had just gotten home, very jet lagged when the leaders called us and INSISTED we pick up again and go to LA for a parent/teen workshop with our (rebellious) teens! Being “obedient” disciples, we went and left the younger two with babysitters.
I had never seen Kip before. I had heard lots about him, but had never met. And then he comes in, in all his short, skinny, seemingly feeble body with his pre-pubescent voice, I said: “That’s HIM? THAT’S this (supposed) amazing teacher/preacher! hahhaha and hearing your story makes me cringe, but all I can say is; consider the source my friend! :)
Thank you Nadine, I appreciate your writing, it is important to see the damage that is done in the name of Christ. This is something I’ve been vulnerable to, at least partly because of a traumatic event in my childhood that I attributed to my own decision to ignore what I had been told. I’m getting much better now at having confidence in my own wisdom, decisions, and the leading of the Spirit, with reminders and encouragement from friends within and outside of the church, as well as professional counseling. I don’t see this heavy-handedness in my region of the church anymore, and it has been acknowledged by leadership. I do believe it is still going on elsewhere; I ask questions, and use my voice to challenge it when I see it.
It is good to hear your region has changed. I believe you. Now the challenge is for the region to challenge other ministries in the ICOC that are still doing that.
It certainly is going on elsewhere, unfortunately after 22-years (since Henry Kriete penned his open letter) the message still has not gotten through. I can only view this as the inability to be led by the Holy Spirit.
This is not to say that the Holy Spirit is not with Christians on an individual level in the ICoC. At best, my experience with the ICoC is that it's an 'ecclesial community' that is ununified between it's branches and with a hierarchy that often puts it's own human leadership 1st without leaving space for the Holy Spirit to work.
Guard your heart and soul and listen for the guidance of the Spirit and ask God for the gift of discernment. God bless.
This is again a good thing turned into a bad thing. There are so many resources out there and I see so many people doing things by themselves without asking for help or guidance. This is a good thing I’ve learnt in the church. But again, it became extreme and abusive. Thank you, Nadine. I can relate, sometimes I have been surprised : saying to myself oh, I can decide on my own now and take responsibility for the consequences of my decisions. but I sometimes have the old reflex coming out. “I need to ask for advice.” I certainly had to rethink how to make decisions. Regarding Kip, he also made a comment about me at the beginning of the Paris church when he was visiting. He heard me lead one song, and for him it was not good enough and he said this guy is not a song leader he shouldn’t lead songs. I remember I felt it was such an unfair comment. Just listening to one song and he didn’t know me. Because I was someone confident, I persevered, and I have led songs for many years, I’m also a musician.
We make quick judgments about people, and we can also look for the wrong things. Someone may be extroverted, but what if he does not have integrity? Someone may be talented, but what if she is dishonest?
Spot on, for me this has resulted in anxiety. I feel unable and anxious about things I put out without gaining some sort of approval. Currently unlearning this through increasing my intolerance of uncertainty.
Oh! and one more thing…. as far people “presenting” to be personable, funny, outgoing, charming etc… we’ve known them, right! and how many of them now are being accused of horrific things that were going on behind the scenes! so much for charisma!
These are the wolves in sheep's clothing. Seemingly powerful with large shiny teeth. Seemingly bigger and more important than the other sheep. The thing about wolves that makes them so dangerous though is that they don't know they're wolves.
They used to like saying "Many advisors make victory sure" ~ a play on Proverbs 11:14... issue with that is the 'Advisors' need to actually know & be qualified on what they're advising on. For many issues that you might actually need some guidance, these people were little more then flapping lips, giving advice because it was expected of them, silence would have been the better virtue.
This is another church manipulation tactic that did a number on me, having come in as a young adult who had already been conditioned during my formative years to distrust my own God-given abilities, intelligence, and intuition. Too much to go into here, but decades of this mentality definitely played a huge role in contributing to my nervous breakdown in 2020.
I really want to thank you again for calling all of these things out. Countless former ICOC members will be recovering from its damage for the rest of their lives, and its current leaders and members are either blind to it or don’t care. I agree; very cultish indeed, and most definitely NOT the heart of Jesus. Your words strengthen and encourage me in knowing that we made the right decision to leave, and I pray they are waking other people up!
So sorry it went all the way to a nervous breakdown. Sadly, I have heard too many of these stories. And you are right about the damage. I witness it daily as people reach out to me.
My mind keeps coming back to this because of “likes” on my other comment. I tend to process through things slowly, so I wanted to come back and say something else.
Creating a state of learned helplessness is something narcissistic abusers do to their victims. It’s absolutely an intentional control tactic.
People who have already been subjected to narcissistic abuse (especially as children, from their parents) are easy prey for cults and other organizations that rely on these types of control mechanisms, because they’ve already been pre-programmed to comply.
This is evil, and has no place in any group that claims to be following Jesus. Even if certain local churches have moved away from abusive practices, their reluctance to acknowledge the extent of the harm they’ve caused, as well as their lack of care for their congregants who have been deeply injured in the past, is evidence of lack of godly sorrow, and therefore reflects an absence of true repentance. None of these churches are safe, especially for survivors of childhood abuse.
things like this is why people who grew up in certain households, with overbearing parents, co-dependent relationships, or generally with poor self-image/esteem, were so susceptible to the church's "system". I admit that I was one of those, but at the same time, I was serving in the military with great success and being taught the opposite. To have confidence, to be self-determined, to make decisions, and be someone that frankly, wouldn't back down when he saw things that were wrong, even if it meant I had to argue with the "chain of command". I had some relatively good military leaders along the way, that taught me some good stuff.
Sorry to all those that didn't get this benefit. Or didn't have the stubbornness of an autistic.
This one hits close to home.
Unlike Nadine, I think my default is low self esteem and dependency on approval of others.
I saw how I abdicated my God-given choice to others who are meant to be ‘more righteous than I’.
That’s on me.
But everyone has their own cross to bear. Some need to learn to surrender choices others must learn to own choices - dependent on our deficiencies and strengths. I fall into the latter group.
Re the ICOC I’ve come to see that there were/are sins of leadership and there are sins of the ‘people’.
If leaders were heavy handed and controlling, ‘the people’ willingly elected a king. See Israel and Saul.
This isn’t to say everyone did this. My wife is like Nadine in her self-possession and independent thought, for example.
Just to say that some cultures play into existing mindsets and against others. Not to justify any of the wrongs here, but like Israel, there were times when the leaders led the people into sin, and there were times when the people demanded the entirely wrong thing.
I see these things in the ICOC.
The challenge is maturity. People who can make a godly stance in the face of ungodly leadership and godly leaders who can do the same in the face of ungodly congregational demands.
But if the OT is anything to go by, easier said than done.
Excellent insight Craig. Thank you for sharing this.
omg! HOW IRONIC!!! Our whole family had been in Australia for two weeks for the Millennium ( my wealthy sister in law paid for it…) we had just gotten home, very jet lagged when the leaders called us and INSISTED we pick up again and go to LA for a parent/teen workshop with our (rebellious) teens! Being “obedient” disciples, we went and left the younger two with babysitters.
I had never seen Kip before. I had heard lots about him, but had never met. And then he comes in, in all his short, skinny, seemingly feeble body with his pre-pubescent voice, I said: “That’s HIM? THAT’S this (supposed) amazing teacher/preacher! hahhaha and hearing your story makes me cringe, but all I can say is; consider the source my friend! :)
Thank you Nadine, I appreciate your writing, it is important to see the damage that is done in the name of Christ. This is something I’ve been vulnerable to, at least partly because of a traumatic event in my childhood that I attributed to my own decision to ignore what I had been told. I’m getting much better now at having confidence in my own wisdom, decisions, and the leading of the Spirit, with reminders and encouragement from friends within and outside of the church, as well as professional counseling. I don’t see this heavy-handedness in my region of the church anymore, and it has been acknowledged by leadership. I do believe it is still going on elsewhere; I ask questions, and use my voice to challenge it when I see it.
It is good to hear your region has changed. I believe you. Now the challenge is for the region to challenge other ministries in the ICOC that are still doing that.
It certainly is going on elsewhere, unfortunately after 22-years (since Henry Kriete penned his open letter) the message still has not gotten through. I can only view this as the inability to be led by the Holy Spirit.
This is not to say that the Holy Spirit is not with Christians on an individual level in the ICoC. At best, my experience with the ICoC is that it's an 'ecclesial community' that is ununified between it's branches and with a hierarchy that often puts it's own human leadership 1st without leaving space for the Holy Spirit to work.
Guard your heart and soul and listen for the guidance of the Spirit and ask God for the gift of discernment. God bless.
Well said! Many in the kookdom were strong critical thinkers in their profession but left that skill at the door of the church meetings...
This is again a good thing turned into a bad thing. There are so many resources out there and I see so many people doing things by themselves without asking for help or guidance. This is a good thing I’ve learnt in the church. But again, it became extreme and abusive. Thank you, Nadine. I can relate, sometimes I have been surprised : saying to myself oh, I can decide on my own now and take responsibility for the consequences of my decisions. but I sometimes have the old reflex coming out. “I need to ask for advice.” I certainly had to rethink how to make decisions. Regarding Kip, he also made a comment about me at the beginning of the Paris church when he was visiting. He heard me lead one song, and for him it was not good enough and he said this guy is not a song leader he shouldn’t lead songs. I remember I felt it was such an unfair comment. Just listening to one song and he didn’t know me. Because I was someone confident, I persevered, and I have led songs for many years, I’m also a musician.
We make quick judgments about people, and we can also look for the wrong things. Someone may be extroverted, but what if he does not have integrity? Someone may be talented, but what if she is dishonest?
Spot on, for me this has resulted in anxiety. I feel unable and anxious about things I put out without gaining some sort of approval. Currently unlearning this through increasing my intolerance of uncertainty.