You raise very valid concerns. The campus ministry is also put on a pedestal adding more pressure to live up to the hype and young people who can't afford college education are even seen as less than. It's really sad so many young people are damaged through lack of maturity and performance driven motives.
I would like to hear testimonials, anonymous, @ the control or spiritual abuse issues u often refer to. We had a situation posted on DT (Feb 2024) where a sister described in detail the campus ministry abuse. The CM now evangelist region leader, was asked to apologize and instead chose to resign and leave the icoc.
I think I know the situation you write about. That is one I had fought for a while. So many stories came out of that ministry. In terms of testimonials, there are many podcasts out there that have very poignant testimonies: Spacemakers, Austin Noll's The Crumpled Papers Podcast, Clemenz with a "Z", The Reclamation Podcast by Aldo Martin, etc. Spacemakers and Austin's are recent. These are Gen Z.
Nothing seems to really change in the ICoC, the damage they do to someone's potential walk with God is incalculable - many simply get damaged so bad they may never return to the path... who will God hold accountable for that?
As one of my ex-leader friends says: it will take the death of many senior icoc leaders to lead to substantive changes.
In the meantime we see the "Sold out" icoc remnant (ICC) crumble and the new theology of Demitryism try to prove that "God is only with us" because of our # of baptisms. This is just McKeanism reborn....so sad...
Progressive groups might be less angry or have less of a yelling attitude, but I think just as likely to exclude someone who doesn't have an ideological match.
I never wanted to connect with campus groups and had the least church attendance of my life during those times. It seemed like a test of popularity or of connectedness to church 'leaders', with their children being most connected and 'friends' also high in the pecking order. People like that had every opportunity to go back or get support, sometimes even with help from mistreated visitors.
Luke 6:33 is embraced more by people outside a church than inside, it seems. To this day I very often meet Christians who say they don't have energy for strangers and everyone needs to be more giving and patient and obedient to authorities. The charity is going to the wrong recipient!
So anyway, why think that campus groups are great or particularly worthy of love? Seems to me like another possible big mistake of churches to focus there and burn out.
It's very interesting to hear that younger generations are sometimes seeking Orthodox churches for more meaningful connections to faith. Sounds more awesome than a fun-loving group of manipulative 'friends'.
I know you and I can imagine how hard it must have been to fit into an American campus ministry. You ask a lot of questions, and that would not have been welcome. In general, I think labels such as "progressive" or "conservative" are harmful. Some people consider me progressive, whilst I am actually very conservative on some issues. It is all very nuanced, and drawing lines in the sand is a very American thing to do. We are all way more complicated than that. Also, leaders' kids are not always treated better. I was a leader, and I know other families who were/are, and their kids got just as mistreated, sometimes even worse. My kids had a horrible experience in campus ministries in the ICOC in the US. It was so abusive! Granted, we were far away and on the other side of the world, so there was not much we could do. I also did not realize the extent of the abuse until years later. I remember one time trying to speak up, and I got rebuked by the campus minister for "interfering". I wish I had interfered more. Now my child is an adult and so traumatized she won't have anything to do with church or Christianity.
That sounds very motivating for you to hear about experiences from your own children. I would be curious if they'd want to write or share themselves. I'm sure you remember that I met Luke before and I'm curious if he's doing well in particular.
Thank you for not being so "progressive". Many former friends would block or ban me just for being suspicious of their allied ideals. If "progressive" is confusing, it's worthwhile to talk about more and share related experiences, isn't it? Similar to church experiences, there's very much possible trauma in workplaces, academics, friendships, and dating. "Progressive" is a descriptor of one type of societal force that is influencing all of those things and churches, and also forcing people to align with progressive values or else be expelled. And honestly I don't like that. Some of these people were telling me that I'm a toxic white privileged male since before I was adult even, and the cause of many societal problems even though I rarely spend time with women or ask anyone to do anything. I would be happy to remember history or people's lived experiences if those things are harmful to "progressive" or "conservative" labelled ideas or institutions.
Finally, it's a bit frightening to me that you're willing to criticize churches but not the atheist abusers and manipulators who are happy to be predators among the "progressive" crowds. You've read so many books and also judge other people's work according to the standards of the day, why not go looking for the problems with "progressive" types? There are many, and they are not undeserving of criticism. My mother particularly hates it and it's frustrating how she won't tell me why or if something happened to her. Sorry for your daughters too and I'm also curious how they would've lived somewhere else.
For now, I am focusing on "Musings on Spirituality and Justice", and a lot of it has to do with my experiences in church. That is my niche for the time being. Luke is a wonderful son, but he has had bad experiences. He did not "fit in". Thank you for asking. I think my kids may want to share at some point, but I will leave that up to them.
I have had quite a few conversations on this topic. It was one of the many reasons I left this fellowship. Another point to consider are the amount of kids who are in shock when they get to college: new school, dorms, food, people and an almost unlimited amount of unknowns. What a privilege it would be to reach out to and befriend these kids with no strings attached, but alas that is not the way it is. Oftentimes when these kids are asked to study or decide not to study the Bible or pursue Christianity, they are dropped, and I mean dropped. All the friends they thought they had, gone. No texting, no calling and no invitations. This is abuse. I’ve brought this up with multiple leaders, especially as I was heading out to the church. They did not listen and even compared it to their college kids experiences with non Christian friends rejecting them, not the same. I believe leaders kids are also watched out for by other leaders and insulated against what other kids might go through. We have to be so responsible and wise with this age group because of these vulnerabilities.
You raise very valid concerns. The campus ministry is also put on a pedestal adding more pressure to live up to the hype and young people who can't afford college education are even seen as less than. It's really sad so many young people are damaged through lack of maturity and performance driven motives.
Excellent points!
I would like to hear testimonials, anonymous, @ the control or spiritual abuse issues u often refer to. We had a situation posted on DT (Feb 2024) where a sister described in detail the campus ministry abuse. The CM now evangelist region leader, was asked to apologize and instead chose to resign and leave the icoc.
I think I know the situation you write about. That is one I had fought for a while. So many stories came out of that ministry. In terms of testimonials, there are many podcasts out there that have very poignant testimonies: Spacemakers, Austin Noll's The Crumpled Papers Podcast, Clemenz with a "Z", The Reclamation Podcast by Aldo Martin, etc. Spacemakers and Austin's are recent. These are Gen Z.
Thanks Nadine, I'll look those up! I'm 25min into "EP 105 We Were In a Cult? Nadine’s Story" - only one I've listed to so far.
Nothing seems to really change in the ICoC, the damage they do to someone's potential walk with God is incalculable - many simply get damaged so bad they may never return to the path... who will God hold accountable for that?
As one of my ex-leader friends says: it will take the death of many senior icoc leaders to lead to substantive changes.
In the meantime we see the "Sold out" icoc remnant (ICC) crumble and the new theology of Demitryism try to prove that "God is only with us" because of our # of baptisms. This is just McKeanism reborn....so sad...
Progressive groups might be less angry or have less of a yelling attitude, but I think just as likely to exclude someone who doesn't have an ideological match.
I never wanted to connect with campus groups and had the least church attendance of my life during those times. It seemed like a test of popularity or of connectedness to church 'leaders', with their children being most connected and 'friends' also high in the pecking order. People like that had every opportunity to go back or get support, sometimes even with help from mistreated visitors.
Luke 6:33 is embraced more by people outside a church than inside, it seems. To this day I very often meet Christians who say they don't have energy for strangers and everyone needs to be more giving and patient and obedient to authorities. The charity is going to the wrong recipient!
So anyway, why think that campus groups are great or particularly worthy of love? Seems to me like another possible big mistake of churches to focus there and burn out.
It's very interesting to hear that younger generations are sometimes seeking Orthodox churches for more meaningful connections to faith. Sounds more awesome than a fun-loving group of manipulative 'friends'.
I know you and I can imagine how hard it must have been to fit into an American campus ministry. You ask a lot of questions, and that would not have been welcome. In general, I think labels such as "progressive" or "conservative" are harmful. Some people consider me progressive, whilst I am actually very conservative on some issues. It is all very nuanced, and drawing lines in the sand is a very American thing to do. We are all way more complicated than that. Also, leaders' kids are not always treated better. I was a leader, and I know other families who were/are, and their kids got just as mistreated, sometimes even worse. My kids had a horrible experience in campus ministries in the ICOC in the US. It was so abusive! Granted, we were far away and on the other side of the world, so there was not much we could do. I also did not realize the extent of the abuse until years later. I remember one time trying to speak up, and I got rebuked by the campus minister for "interfering". I wish I had interfered more. Now my child is an adult and so traumatized she won't have anything to do with church or Christianity.
That sounds very motivating for you to hear about experiences from your own children. I would be curious if they'd want to write or share themselves. I'm sure you remember that I met Luke before and I'm curious if he's doing well in particular.
Thank you for not being so "progressive". Many former friends would block or ban me just for being suspicious of their allied ideals. If "progressive" is confusing, it's worthwhile to talk about more and share related experiences, isn't it? Similar to church experiences, there's very much possible trauma in workplaces, academics, friendships, and dating. "Progressive" is a descriptor of one type of societal force that is influencing all of those things and churches, and also forcing people to align with progressive values or else be expelled. And honestly I don't like that. Some of these people were telling me that I'm a toxic white privileged male since before I was adult even, and the cause of many societal problems even though I rarely spend time with women or ask anyone to do anything. I would be happy to remember history or people's lived experiences if those things are harmful to "progressive" or "conservative" labelled ideas or institutions.
Finally, it's a bit frightening to me that you're willing to criticize churches but not the atheist abusers and manipulators who are happy to be predators among the "progressive" crowds. You've read so many books and also judge other people's work according to the standards of the day, why not go looking for the problems with "progressive" types? There are many, and they are not undeserving of criticism. My mother particularly hates it and it's frustrating how she won't tell me why or if something happened to her. Sorry for your daughters too and I'm also curious how they would've lived somewhere else.
For now, I am focusing on "Musings on Spirituality and Justice", and a lot of it has to do with my experiences in church. That is my niche for the time being. Luke is a wonderful son, but he has had bad experiences. He did not "fit in". Thank you for asking. I think my kids may want to share at some point, but I will leave that up to them.
I have had quite a few conversations on this topic. It was one of the many reasons I left this fellowship. Another point to consider are the amount of kids who are in shock when they get to college: new school, dorms, food, people and an almost unlimited amount of unknowns. What a privilege it would be to reach out to and befriend these kids with no strings attached, but alas that is not the way it is. Oftentimes when these kids are asked to study or decide not to study the Bible or pursue Christianity, they are dropped, and I mean dropped. All the friends they thought they had, gone. No texting, no calling and no invitations. This is abuse. I’ve brought this up with multiple leaders, especially as I was heading out to the church. They did not listen and even compared it to their college kids experiences with non Christian friends rejecting them, not the same. I believe leaders kids are also watched out for by other leaders and insulated against what other kids might go through. We have to be so responsible and wise with this age group because of these vulnerabilities.