Dare I say, the church’s application of the Bible was, in itself, a bounded choice: become a disciple or go to hell. It is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to develop a genuine love for God with this type of thinking. At least it was for me; fear of consequences always trumped authentic love.
If I can reply a short reply too~why not write something.
For a long time I never gelled with the idea that God is also a person. Or rather 3 people. But the thing that helped me develop that, and love for God, is to spend some time thinking, researching, or praying about how God might respond with His (Their? The three of them?) own words or emotions or unsaid thoughts about many different events.
It must be frustrating for God to not be treated as a person. But also They're understanding and patient and loving and all.
Thank you. I've heard people say that you love God by following his commands. But everyone I know seems to have love for God (the feeling). I've been reading more often than I used to and I'm afraid that feeling will never come. Someone asked me if I feel indifferent. I guess that's true. And if someone asks me why I don't love God, I just say that I don't know why, because I truly don't know. It's like a wall.
I have been working on this one for years. I have so many notebooks filled. Pray I can capture it all and write this book. I say start with some simple foundations in love. Strive to Know Him, and understand FULLY, that you are deeply, completely, and wholly loved. You have to grasp this with your whole being, to the point that it motivates you more than you trying to earn His favor with your actions.
Understand also that almost everything that we know about Love, we learned from this world, so we learned it all wrong. We have to be willing to re-learn it. I like to envision the love I see between a mother and her newly born child as the best image and example that can resemble the kind of selfless love Christ has/had for us. It doesn't change when it becomes the unruly teenager, the coworker, the idiot driver on the freeway, etc. We are called to love. Love does not get redefined; we are the ones that redefine it in our own heads often.
As a Highly Sensitive Person, I struggled with how to be authentic. One thing I learned is that we can not develop authentic Love. It simply needs a gentle whisper to be awakened. What helps me to grasp this is to focus on my breath while sitting outside meditating on the connection I have with Nature through the Breath I take. The Breath Of Life. YH-VH. Our Breath has The DNA of Authentic Love. I needed to step out of the limiting Western mindset and tap into the Rhythm of The Creator through Biblical Hebrew. One of the Hebrew Words for Love is Racham. This word Represents The Love of Our Creator as an expecting Mother. Our Creator is/are so Beautiful! Be Blessed on your journey.
Get to know God. See the character of God revealed particularly in the book of Isaiah . Look at your life and see where and when God stepped in. Look at the miracle of grace and how Jesus reveals the heart of God the father . As we know, Jesus is God . The miracle of that .
“Those of us who were ‘converted from the world’ and had formed our identities before joining a high-control organization or cult were better equipped at disagreeing or thinking independently.”
And then there were those young adults who, because of a background of childhood abuse and neglect (and often, I think, neurodivergence), never had the opportunity to form their own identities before being swept into a system that proceeded to tell them who they were supposed to be. And they willingly went along with it, because they were desperate for Jesus and something that, at least initially, looked like love.
I would love to see you explore that also. Thank you for using your respected voice to address these things!
I’m not sure if there’s a way to private message on this platform (or at least I haven’t found it), but maybe I can try to message you later on Facebook Messenger.
Ohhh! This was me. I came into the church at 15, without my parents. They watched carefully, after hearing a lot of negative things, but allowed me to make my own choices. That was 35 years ago. I left the church about 2.5 years ago and it's taken 3 years of therapy to learn to hear my own voice, speak freely, dissent without fear, and recognize healthy boundaries and expectations. I came from a background of abuse and learned at a very young age to mold myself to a situation so I didn't get in trouble and that just continued in the church. I learned to be a chameleon to survive. I have a mantra now...I know better, therefore I do better. My kids, also wiser in the church, have been so gracious and turned out to be amazing, strong, humans, despite me!!
Ali, thank you so much for sharing that. I really think those of us who came out of abusive homes were affected in a very specific and unique way that perhaps others cannot understand.
I think a lot of the unhealthy practices that were centered around control, were not necessarily recognized by us as being unhealthy, because in many ways they mirrored what we came out of.
I truly believe that being abused, controlled, and manipulated in childhood made us a lot more susceptible to additional mental, emotional, spiritual, and relational trauma in the church, compounding the trauma we were already carrying.
I was in the church for about 32 years. In the past decade or so, I’ve heard a lot of people sit around talking and laughing about how “messed up” things were in the “old days.” But the truth is, a lot of us are coming to terms with the understanding that those practices were not just messed up; they messed US up! And we aren’t laughing about it.
Agreed. While I’ve seen some changes in the churches I’ve been in (and I know this isn’t true in all of the churches), there is still much room for growth. There are some things that aren’t openly preached or taught anymore, and a general understanding that those things were not good, but there are still underlying attitudes and expectations – what I call “echoes“ of the old system. I’ve also seen knee-jerk pendulum swings to other equally unhealthy extremes in some cases.
Yes, some churches have made progress, but that can easily be reversed if the leadership changes, because we are still part of the same system. I have seen that happen. And in many churches, things have not changed at all. In fact, they are even worse due to less accountability. So someone can be a tyrant in their local church or region of churches, and no one will intervene. I have appealed on many occasions regarding situations I knew about, and the apathy was stunning.
I reposted this because of the typos I made and didn’t realize in my first post .
Here is a concern I want to share ! I am a mental health professional (LCPC ), work in the Chicago suburbs and see children all over Illinois for virtual therapy . I am EMDR trained and focus on trauma . Why am I sharing this ? I observe that physical discipline is terrible for children. I was a pediatric therapist through Illinois Early Intervention (Birth to 3) . Children cannot be hit -it is abusive . When my husband and I sought to adopt the first of our two Chinese daughters , we almost didn’t make it . When we told the social worker who did our home study and we spanked our children, (sadly,) the social worker who did our home study reached out to HOPE for kids for an explanation . We were told in no uncertain terms that we could not spank an adoptive child due to the trauma that child already experienced .
Further , there was an underlying belief that children were somehow inherently bad.
I want to say that ministry staff who are not trained in mental health or pediatric/child development should not be doing parent training unless this training focuses strictly on how to cultivate faith in children. We all need ideas and resources. I’ve apologized many times to one of my daughters for over spanking . We should discipline and teach out kids using “the rod of discipline ,” guidance, teaching, skill development, emotional attunememt , staying in your role as a parent -but not hurting them.
As a kingdom kid, I feel seen. I’ve been realizing recently that I wasn’t ever taught to critically think and I’m finally starting to do that, with church specifically.
Thank you Nadine! You are exactly right again! I parented out of fear my daughter would go to hell! I still have this gnawing fears in my heart! These posts are so important and need to be heard!
Very true Nadine. One skill I regret not teaching my kids was what I call "spiritual critical thinking". Great book about this is called "Mama Bear Apologetics - empowering your kids to challenge cultural lies" by Hillary Morgan Ferret.
We did teach our kids critical thinking but even within that there was still bounded choice. You must have taught your kids as they have proved to be critical thinkers.
I have been a victim of and perpetuated bounded choice. Repentance has brought refreshing and healing. Parenting from fear has damaged my children. I am so grateful for their forgiveness and the rebuilding we have done in our relationships. Bounded choice is rooted conditional love and that is NEVER the heart of Jesus. As always thanks for putting words to express this.
Thanks again for speaking up, Nadine. I love to see the growing understanding of these dysfunctional and sometimes even dangerous dynamics and the healing it brings.
Dare I say, the church’s application of the Bible was, in itself, a bounded choice: become a disciple or go to hell. It is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to develop a genuine love for God with this type of thinking. At least it was for me; fear of consequences always trumped authentic love.
So true!
Hello! Question - How does one develop an authentic love for God?
If I can reply a short reply too~why not write something.
For a long time I never gelled with the idea that God is also a person. Or rather 3 people. But the thing that helped me develop that, and love for God, is to spend some time thinking, researching, or praying about how God might respond with His (Their? The three of them?) own words or emotions or unsaid thoughts about many different events.
It must be frustrating for God to not be treated as a person. But also They're understanding and patient and loving and all.
Great question. I will write something about that. Not that I have all the answers but I do have some suggestions.
Thank you. I've heard people say that you love God by following his commands. But everyone I know seems to have love for God (the feeling). I've been reading more often than I used to and I'm afraid that feeling will never come. Someone asked me if I feel indifferent. I guess that's true. And if someone asks me why I don't love God, I just say that I don't know why, because I truly don't know. It's like a wall.
Let me give it some thought. I have a post already scheduled for Friday but this would be a great topic for Monday’s post.
I have been working on this one for years. I have so many notebooks filled. Pray I can capture it all and write this book. I say start with some simple foundations in love. Strive to Know Him, and understand FULLY, that you are deeply, completely, and wholly loved. You have to grasp this with your whole being, to the point that it motivates you more than you trying to earn His favor with your actions.
Understand also that almost everything that we know about Love, we learned from this world, so we learned it all wrong. We have to be willing to re-learn it. I like to envision the love I see between a mother and her newly born child as the best image and example that can resemble the kind of selfless love Christ has/had for us. It doesn't change when it becomes the unruly teenager, the coworker, the idiot driver on the freeway, etc. We are called to love. Love does not get redefined; we are the ones that redefine it in our own heads often.
Hope this helps
As a Highly Sensitive Person, I struggled with how to be authentic. One thing I learned is that we can not develop authentic Love. It simply needs a gentle whisper to be awakened. What helps me to grasp this is to focus on my breath while sitting outside meditating on the connection I have with Nature through the Breath I take. The Breath Of Life. YH-VH. Our Breath has The DNA of Authentic Love. I needed to step out of the limiting Western mindset and tap into the Rhythm of The Creator through Biblical Hebrew. One of the Hebrew Words for Love is Racham. This word Represents The Love of Our Creator as an expecting Mother. Our Creator is/are so Beautiful! Be Blessed on your journey.
Still working on that, but one thing I’m sure of— love cannot develop under threat. 1 John 4:18
This is true. Where there is a threat, there is coercion. (Not that God does that, but the church practiced that.)
Get to know God. See the character of God revealed particularly in the book of Isaiah . Look at your life and see where and when God stepped in. Look at the miracle of grace and how Jesus reveals the heart of God the father . As we know, Jesus is God . The miracle of that .
“Those of us who were ‘converted from the world’ and had formed our identities before joining a high-control organization or cult were better equipped at disagreeing or thinking independently.”
And then there were those young adults who, because of a background of childhood abuse and neglect (and often, I think, neurodivergence), never had the opportunity to form their own identities before being swept into a system that proceeded to tell them who they were supposed to be. And they willingly went along with it, because they were desperate for Jesus and something that, at least initially, looked like love.
I would love to see you explore that also. Thank you for using your respected voice to address these things!
Great point. Feel free to message me and send me some ideas.
I’m not sure if there’s a way to private message on this platform (or at least I haven’t found it), but maybe I can try to message you later on Facebook Messenger.
You can email me also at nadinetempler@gmail.com
Ohhh! This was me. I came into the church at 15, without my parents. They watched carefully, after hearing a lot of negative things, but allowed me to make my own choices. That was 35 years ago. I left the church about 2.5 years ago and it's taken 3 years of therapy to learn to hear my own voice, speak freely, dissent without fear, and recognize healthy boundaries and expectations. I came from a background of abuse and learned at a very young age to mold myself to a situation so I didn't get in trouble and that just continued in the church. I learned to be a chameleon to survive. I have a mantra now...I know better, therefore I do better. My kids, also wiser in the church, have been so gracious and turned out to be amazing, strong, humans, despite me!!
Ali, thank you so much for sharing that. I really think those of us who came out of abusive homes were affected in a very specific and unique way that perhaps others cannot understand.
I think a lot of the unhealthy practices that were centered around control, were not necessarily recognized by us as being unhealthy, because in many ways they mirrored what we came out of.
I truly believe that being abused, controlled, and manipulated in childhood made us a lot more susceptible to additional mental, emotional, spiritual, and relational trauma in the church, compounding the trauma we were already carrying.
I was in the church for about 32 years. In the past decade or so, I’ve heard a lot of people sit around talking and laughing about how “messed up” things were in the “old days.” But the truth is, a lot of us are coming to terms with the understanding that those practices were not just messed up; they messed US up! And we aren’t laughing about it.
And they are still messed up today!
Agreed. While I’ve seen some changes in the churches I’ve been in (and I know this isn’t true in all of the churches), there is still much room for growth. There are some things that aren’t openly preached or taught anymore, and a general understanding that those things were not good, but there are still underlying attitudes and expectations – what I call “echoes“ of the old system. I’ve also seen knee-jerk pendulum swings to other equally unhealthy extremes in some cases.
Yes, some churches have made progress, but that can easily be reversed if the leadership changes, because we are still part of the same system. I have seen that happen. And in many churches, things have not changed at all. In fact, they are even worse due to less accountability. So someone can be a tyrant in their local church or region of churches, and no one will intervene. I have appealed on many occasions regarding situations I knew about, and the apathy was stunning.
Oh wow! Thank you for sharing! ❤️
I reposted this because of the typos I made and didn’t realize in my first post .
Here is a concern I want to share ! I am a mental health professional (LCPC ), work in the Chicago suburbs and see children all over Illinois for virtual therapy . I am EMDR trained and focus on trauma . Why am I sharing this ? I observe that physical discipline is terrible for children. I was a pediatric therapist through Illinois Early Intervention (Birth to 3) . Children cannot be hit -it is abusive . When my husband and I sought to adopt the first of our two Chinese daughters , we almost didn’t make it . When we told the social worker who did our home study and we spanked our children, (sadly,) the social worker who did our home study reached out to HOPE for kids for an explanation . We were told in no uncertain terms that we could not spank an adoptive child due to the trauma that child already experienced .
Further , there was an underlying belief that children were somehow inherently bad.
I want to say that ministry staff who are not trained in mental health or pediatric/child development should not be doing parent training unless this training focuses strictly on how to cultivate faith in children. We all need ideas and resources. I’ve apologized many times to one of my daughters for over spanking . We should discipline and teach out kids using “the rod of discipline ,” guidance, teaching, skill development, emotional attunememt , staying in your role as a parent -but not hurting them.
Agreed
As a kingdom kid, I feel seen. I’ve been realizing recently that I wasn’t ever taught to critically think and I’m finally starting to do that, with church specifically.
I hear from young people (some as old as 40) who grew up in the church on a daily basis. And the story is always the same.
Thank you Nadine! You are exactly right again! I parented out of fear my daughter would go to hell! I still have this gnawing fears in my heart! These posts are so important and need to be heard!
Very true Nadine. One skill I regret not teaching my kids was what I call "spiritual critical thinking". Great book about this is called "Mama Bear Apologetics - empowering your kids to challenge cultural lies" by Hillary Morgan Ferret.
We did teach our kids critical thinking but even within that there was still bounded choice. You must have taught your kids as they have proved to be critical thinkers.
I will check it out.
I have been a victim of and perpetuated bounded choice. Repentance has brought refreshing and healing. Parenting from fear has damaged my children. I am so grateful for their forgiveness and the rebuilding we have done in our relationships. Bounded choice is rooted conditional love and that is NEVER the heart of Jesus. As always thanks for putting words to express this.
Love you friend!
Thanks for sharing!!!!!
Parents or not, GREAT info for anyone who has relationships of influence.... all of us.
XOXO
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Something to seriously ponder.
Thanks again for speaking up, Nadine. I love to see the growing understanding of these dysfunctional and sometimes even dangerous dynamics and the healing it brings.
Author's last name is Ferrer
I agree with you. I wrote another post on the topic of corporal punishment.
Sorry for the typos!