"The prejudiced and racist undertones of such expectations are also not Christlike."
"Western evangelical Christianity is greatly influenced by the white US Southern culture. Women are expected to be submissive, thin, and sweet. They are expected to be impeccable in their presentation (clothes, makeup, and hair) and poised in their demeanor. Don’t forget the lipstick! They have to be polite, never raise their voices, and speak in a high-pitched baby tone."
The problem is that white culture is conflated with godliness and anyone who doesn't fir in with white culture is considered "too much"...
They never, ever think that they may possibly be "not enough"!!!!!!!
It's white, fake Christian Nationalism... not Christianity.
Nadine, you're absolutely right. In toxic church cultures, even men who try to speak up often face backlash. It's part of a broader pattern of control — a coping mechanism the system uses to silence truth and preserve power. It usually follows a predictable cycle: first, “Who told you?” Then, the messenger is discredited. And when that doesn't work, the focus shifts to tone — “You're not being respectful.” It’s a way to deflect, avoid accountability, and employ whataboutery to shift attention.
Psychologist Dr. Jennifer Freyd describes this well in her concept of institutional betrayal — when trusted institutions (like churches) harm those who rely on them by covering up abuse, punishing those who speak out, and protecting the powerful. Her book Blind to Betrayal (co-authored with Pamela J. Birrell) offers profound insight into how both individuals and institutions use gaslighting and silencing to maintain control.
YES! It is confusing to people like me when you many are 'nice' and not direct. I LITERALLY do not understand. I have grown to figure it out, and interpret in 80-90% of the time, but I feel deeply for many other like me (on the spectrum) who struggle to figure it all out.
From what I see in the Bible, we OUGHT to be able to frank with one another. Too many abuse this privilege, but that's whole other lesson. So perhaps that's the pushback some feel. There's a lot to learn about how to speak to one another - without emotion, accusations, you statements, etc. But it would start if we would learn how to accept hearing things without reacting to it. Perhaps take a moment, to pause, and then ask questions of curiosity to find out what the person is trying to convey before you tell them how they should have said it. It's supposed to be about the other person after all, right? That's how we love - by not demanding things suit us first, by pointing things out to make ourselves comfortable, or telling others how they need to change. Rather we meet them where they are, so we can restore gently and carry their burdens.
I LOVE the strong, direct Christian women that have been in my life. Especially the ones that were patient with me, and sought to listen and understand and then directly told me what I needed to hear. Those that were overly 'nice' were not authentic enough for someone like me to understand at first pass.
It was tough sometimes. Especially in the earlier days. I had to really work through the tendency to feel a lot of shame, and it caused some serious issues. When I gained my confidence and voice, it caused even more lol.
ABC - Always Be Curious. We don't know what person's intent, emotions, thoughts are. So ask without a presupposed, prejudiced, approach. THEN offer help, not instruction. I can explain how so much was woven into our culture that is counter to this, but it would take too long.
Yes, the church leaders have told wives to essentially lie in the name of submission or not hurting their husband's egos. How many times did a BT leader or discipler tell wives to "fake it until you make it"? Or to build up a rude husband because that will make him nice? (Not true.) Wives were not to speak the truth, but to shrink down. They told wives that they were sowing discord or gossiping if they spoke up about their husband's behavior. There was never any iron sharpening iron in marriage. Both became weaker because one was shut down and shut up, while the other never had any accountability. But the wives were polite and built up the husbands, while growing more easily controlled the whole way.
The double standard for men and women is valid and men that did not fit the "leadership" profile or model ie not "intense" or too laid back and actually kind like my husband whose leadership style was to build community and family and teach thoughtfully not loudly also experienced awful bullying and tearing down sessions.
Isn't it interesting how so many women are speaking up and challenging the hypocrisy and indoctrination, toxic culture etc and the voices of men are deafening in their silence. (If there are I may have missed them so this is an observation that may not be accurate).
Just a gentle foot note, to call out racial profiling and then stereotype the squeaky voiced Southern belle takes away from your very valid observation.
Thank you for sharing. I agree with your observation about the quiet men. Many were bullied. And yes, it seems like women are leading the way in speaking up. I would respectfully disagree with your last point though, simply because black people have been discriminated against and historically oppressed, but white women nearly not as much. In fact, white women have often been part of the problem. I hope that makes sense.
I love hearing about different cultures. It reminds me of how different the culture of Bible times was, as well. I live in Texas and grew up here, but I also lived in Virginia for 26 years. Most would say I’m a southern gal, and they would be correct. But I’m definitely NOT a Southern Belle! I hate wearing makeup — especially lipstick. In fact, I’m not sure I even have any. 😄
I’m quite bold and direct. But I love people and do my best to be nice and polite. Just don’t ask me what I think unless you’re ready for it. 😂
Totally.....
"The prejudiced and racist undertones of such expectations are also not Christlike."
"Western evangelical Christianity is greatly influenced by the white US Southern culture. Women are expected to be submissive, thin, and sweet. They are expected to be impeccable in their presentation (clothes, makeup, and hair) and poised in their demeanor. Don’t forget the lipstick! They have to be polite, never raise their voices, and speak in a high-pitched baby tone."
The problem is that white culture is conflated with godliness and anyone who doesn't fir in with white culture is considered "too much"...
They never, ever think that they may possibly be "not enough"!!!!!!!
It's white, fake Christian Nationalism... not Christianity.
Nadine, you're absolutely right. In toxic church cultures, even men who try to speak up often face backlash. It's part of a broader pattern of control — a coping mechanism the system uses to silence truth and preserve power. It usually follows a predictable cycle: first, “Who told you?” Then, the messenger is discredited. And when that doesn't work, the focus shifts to tone — “You're not being respectful.” It’s a way to deflect, avoid accountability, and employ whataboutery to shift attention.
Psychologist Dr. Jennifer Freyd describes this well in her concept of institutional betrayal — when trusted institutions (like churches) harm those who rely on them by covering up abuse, punishing those who speak out, and protecting the powerful. Her book Blind to Betrayal (co-authored with Pamela J. Birrell) offers profound insight into how both individuals and institutions use gaslighting and silencing to maintain control.
Yes, completely agree.
YES! It is confusing to people like me when you many are 'nice' and not direct. I LITERALLY do not understand. I have grown to figure it out, and interpret in 80-90% of the time, but I feel deeply for many other like me (on the spectrum) who struggle to figure it all out.
From what I see in the Bible, we OUGHT to be able to frank with one another. Too many abuse this privilege, but that's whole other lesson. So perhaps that's the pushback some feel. There's a lot to learn about how to speak to one another - without emotion, accusations, you statements, etc. But it would start if we would learn how to accept hearing things without reacting to it. Perhaps take a moment, to pause, and then ask questions of curiosity to find out what the person is trying to convey before you tell them how they should have said it. It's supposed to be about the other person after all, right? That's how we love - by not demanding things suit us first, by pointing things out to make ourselves comfortable, or telling others how they need to change. Rather we meet them where they are, so we can restore gently and carry their burdens.
I LOVE the strong, direct Christian women that have been in my life. Especially the ones that were patient with me, and sought to listen and understand and then directly told me what I needed to hear. Those that were overly 'nice' were not authentic enough for someone like me to understand at first pass.
I have thought about how those on the spectrum have a hard time with the way we communicate in church.
It was tough sometimes. Especially in the earlier days. I had to really work through the tendency to feel a lot of shame, and it caused some serious issues. When I gained my confidence and voice, it caused even more lol.
ABC - Always Be Curious. We don't know what person's intent, emotions, thoughts are. So ask without a presupposed, prejudiced, approach. THEN offer help, not instruction. I can explain how so much was woven into our culture that is counter to this, but it would take too long.
Thank you from a Northerner:-)
Yes, the church leaders have told wives to essentially lie in the name of submission or not hurting their husband's egos. How many times did a BT leader or discipler tell wives to "fake it until you make it"? Or to build up a rude husband because that will make him nice? (Not true.) Wives were not to speak the truth, but to shrink down. They told wives that they were sowing discord or gossiping if they spoke up about their husband's behavior. There was never any iron sharpening iron in marriage. Both became weaker because one was shut down and shut up, while the other never had any accountability. But the wives were polite and built up the husbands, while growing more easily controlled the whole way.
There is a lot of truth in your statement!
The double standard for men and women is valid and men that did not fit the "leadership" profile or model ie not "intense" or too laid back and actually kind like my husband whose leadership style was to build community and family and teach thoughtfully not loudly also experienced awful bullying and tearing down sessions.
Isn't it interesting how so many women are speaking up and challenging the hypocrisy and indoctrination, toxic culture etc and the voices of men are deafening in their silence. (If there are I may have missed them so this is an observation that may not be accurate).
Just a gentle foot note, to call out racial profiling and then stereotype the squeaky voiced Southern belle takes away from your very valid observation.
Thank you for sharing. I agree with your observation about the quiet men. Many were bullied. And yes, it seems like women are leading the way in speaking up. I would respectfully disagree with your last point though, simply because black people have been discriminated against and historically oppressed, but white women nearly not as much. In fact, white women have often been part of the problem. I hope that makes sense.
For sure.
Short and to the point. Had I met more people like you in Church, I might have stayed.
I love hearing about different cultures. It reminds me of how different the culture of Bible times was, as well. I live in Texas and grew up here, but I also lived in Virginia for 26 years. Most would say I’m a southern gal, and they would be correct. But I’m definitely NOT a Southern Belle! I hate wearing makeup — especially lipstick. In fact, I’m not sure I even have any. 😄
I’m quite bold and direct. But I love people and do my best to be nice and polite. Just don’t ask me what I think unless you’re ready for it. 😂