ugh.....and so much of this advice had nothing to do with 'Godly' wisdom. If you step back and really evaluate, every bit of it was MAN's will and MAN's purposes, to follow worldly plans. I was one of those people that fought back many times. I lost my job and could not find any work making close to what I made. We simply could not pay our bills and prepared to file for bankruptcy and give up our home. Leaders tried to pressure me that I should not do so. They of course couldn't provide me with an alternative. Just don't do it. This resulted in me raising my very loud Army voice and booming at them in untold ways. Of course, I was the problem lol. And another time they tried to pressure me into setting a numerical goal of how many people I would bring to church; I looked at them and plainly stated I would not. I laid out the many crises that the group I had was leading were dealing with (it was BAD, grief, abuse, divorce, etc.), and I said, I will make sure these people get through the week and hopefully they come to church. Again, they tried to make me out to be a bad person, but as usual, the stubborn autistic in me would not be moved, and could out scripture them. How I wasn't kicked out back then lol
This brings so much to my mind. The bullying sessions. The many times I let the church make life decisions for me, and the times I put my foot down.
One instance in particular: I was pregnant and we were “asked” (told) to move to a new city. We refused and our “stubbornness” was blamed on me. The minister told me he wanted to come over and talk with us, and I agreed, but he showed up with three or four other uninvited people, and we had a bullying session in my living room before we kicked them out. Fast-forward several months, our four-month-old son had a very rare, life-threatening condition, and the doctor who was the leading expert in the country on that condition was right there, living and practicing in the town that we had refused to leave.
When we did decide on our own to move cities in 2016, we felt like we had to talk to the church leaders in both our current church and new church. We had been conditioned that way. We weren’t asking for permission, but still wanted their blessing on our decision. This was silly.
When our family faced a major crisis in 2020, we were actually seeking input and support from our church “family,” but events led to another multi-participant bullying session, after which I had a nervous breakdown and suffered a health crisis.
The result of all of that is that I am now fiercely independent and private. We eventually left the church in the aftermath of what happened in 2020.
No more bullying sessions! I will never again sit where two or more are gathered, and the focus is me, my family, or my life decisions.
The examples you provide are recent. Sometimes, we put this all down to the pre-2003 era when this kind of behavior is still very much going on. We can make ourselves feel better by saying, "We have changed". No, we haven't. Not really. And the only way to know is to ask church members.
The first example was in 2001. Our son just turned 24. But you’re right; the other examples are more recent. The church (in my area, at least) would publicly say things have changed. Words may have changed, but underlying attitudes and expectations have not. The church we left was planted in 1999, and most of its current members were not involved in the church prior to 2003, but the conditioning is still there. Our daughter (28) has recently told me about “advice” (orders) she received in the campus ministry, as well as things she was told during her premarital counseling five years ago (unhealthy advice about her private relations with her husband) that I found shocking and appalling.
Without question I saw and participated in - especially amongst church staff - the imitation game.
The leader grew a mustache - worked out at the gym - wore certain clothes - all the men followed suit. Not sure about the vasectomy - but entirely possible.
I remember one staff person in my generation being ordered to have children. Which he actually did. I’m certain he has no regrets but he didn’t want to have kids yet at the time. And staff weren’t allowed to be on leave more than one week at a time.
I was meant to marry a specific type of person (full time material) and was pointed to certain sisters - and away from my now wife - and eventually told ‘this is the girl you should marry’.
I didn’t follow those orders thankfully. But did gain the disapproval and disdain of leadership for the same. And even had rumours spread around by other full time staff that my wife and I committed sexual immortality during our dating relationship (which we never did - not even impurity).
But I did follow much and do bullying of my own.
Much of the time I spent in the ICOC was to repent of the same and do what I could to create a healthy space.
Our separation from the ICOC within the last year was accepting that there’s only so much that can be done, not much has changed despite all the time gone by.
Yes, the spreading of rumors when a couple did not follow "advice". The same thing happened with my child (the one you know). So hurtful and pathetic. Sorry, friend.
I remember this vasectomy thing - totally unknown at the time by French people and very popular in the US. Again the American culture in the church, “this is the way we do things!” “Oh it doesn’t work the same in your country?” No and if you had asked you would have known! By the way it was just mentioned to me, and in a lesson compared to Paul circumcising Timothy for the sake of the kingdom! Anyway you wouldn’t have touched me !!!
I look back at all the so called “advice” we were given as well, and it blows my mind that we went along with willingly because we trusted these people in the name of Jesus! But as I dissect it, I can attest that the leaders were discussing us and our family amongst themselves and then coming to us with their “advice”! Very “cultish” indeed!
Having a mission is in no way an indicator to what one has a right to regarding another persons' life. It doesn't matter who you are or how high of leadership you are. No one has that right. I am glad you put your foot down.
As soon as I read the title of this my testicles receded back up into my torso... well it felt like they did but maybe just my male sensitivity to the subject. I had a co-worker who had it done and he said they just treated him like a piece of meat and was sore for weeks after.
After we had a couple of children, for a while my wife wanted me to get one (like her dad did)... I stewed on it for a while and decided I'd rather not - we only had 2 children and did not know the future, I really didn't want to lose the option for more or (God forbid) should one of them die or something... I know it's weird but it was a thought... I wasn't living a Christian life at the time, this was just my feeling on it.
Anyway.. THATS INSANE! I never knew the 'leadership' would think it was okay to do something like that, it's like they never read the Bible. Having children (or not) is BY THE WILL OF GOD. It's by his design and not for us to mutilate our bodies to try and control his will or have someone pressure you/him into something like that. Not only do they want to control who you date or marry but they want to control how many children God will bless you with. The more I read about the goings on at the Kip cults, the more convinced I am that they are closer to a synagogue of Satan than a Church of Christ.
Glad Mark didn't get snipped - strange thing to say but there you go.
No doubt. Can I ask what is the ICoC position on abortion, IVF, suicide & assisted suicide, etc? Not looking to start debate on it, but it never came up during my 'sin' study so just curious what their stance is on any of that?
no worries, in retrospect my question should really have been if there was a unified position back around 2003 (when we left).
I suspect today I could ask 7 different branch leaders and get 7 differing answers, there appears to be is no definitive published public statement from any of the current Kip Mckean groups - maybe deliberate ambiguity...
What are your thoughts on divorce within the church? Should they be disfellowshipped?
I know someone who said their spouse was having an emotional affair with somebody so they decided to divorce them, and the church leaders said they could no longer be a church member if they divorced the spouse because it was not a good enough reason.
ugh.....and so much of this advice had nothing to do with 'Godly' wisdom. If you step back and really evaluate, every bit of it was MAN's will and MAN's purposes, to follow worldly plans. I was one of those people that fought back many times. I lost my job and could not find any work making close to what I made. We simply could not pay our bills and prepared to file for bankruptcy and give up our home. Leaders tried to pressure me that I should not do so. They of course couldn't provide me with an alternative. Just don't do it. This resulted in me raising my very loud Army voice and booming at them in untold ways. Of course, I was the problem lol. And another time they tried to pressure me into setting a numerical goal of how many people I would bring to church; I looked at them and plainly stated I would not. I laid out the many crises that the group I had was leading were dealing with (it was BAD, grief, abuse, divorce, etc.), and I said, I will make sure these people get through the week and hopefully they come to church. Again, they tried to make me out to be a bad person, but as usual, the stubborn autistic in me would not be moved, and could out scripture them. How I wasn't kicked out back then lol
This brings so much to my mind. The bullying sessions. The many times I let the church make life decisions for me, and the times I put my foot down.
One instance in particular: I was pregnant and we were “asked” (told) to move to a new city. We refused and our “stubbornness” was blamed on me. The minister told me he wanted to come over and talk with us, and I agreed, but he showed up with three or four other uninvited people, and we had a bullying session in my living room before we kicked them out. Fast-forward several months, our four-month-old son had a very rare, life-threatening condition, and the doctor who was the leading expert in the country on that condition was right there, living and practicing in the town that we had refused to leave.
When we did decide on our own to move cities in 2016, we felt like we had to talk to the church leaders in both our current church and new church. We had been conditioned that way. We weren’t asking for permission, but still wanted their blessing on our decision. This was silly.
When our family faced a major crisis in 2020, we were actually seeking input and support from our church “family,” but events led to another multi-participant bullying session, after which I had a nervous breakdown and suffered a health crisis.
The result of all of that is that I am now fiercely independent and private. We eventually left the church in the aftermath of what happened in 2020.
No more bullying sessions! I will never again sit where two or more are gathered, and the focus is me, my family, or my life decisions.
The examples you provide are recent. Sometimes, we put this all down to the pre-2003 era when this kind of behavior is still very much going on. We can make ourselves feel better by saying, "We have changed". No, we haven't. Not really. And the only way to know is to ask church members.
The first example was in 2001. Our son just turned 24. But you’re right; the other examples are more recent. The church (in my area, at least) would publicly say things have changed. Words may have changed, but underlying attitudes and expectations have not. The church we left was planted in 1999, and most of its current members were not involved in the church prior to 2003, but the conditioning is still there. Our daughter (28) has recently told me about “advice” (orders) she received in the campus ministry, as well as things she was told during her premarital counseling five years ago (unhealthy advice about her private relations with her husband) that I found shocking and appalling.
Yes, sounds familiar. Those of us with young adult kids have heard the more recent stories.
Without question I saw and participated in - especially amongst church staff - the imitation game.
The leader grew a mustache - worked out at the gym - wore certain clothes - all the men followed suit. Not sure about the vasectomy - but entirely possible.
I remember one staff person in my generation being ordered to have children. Which he actually did. I’m certain he has no regrets but he didn’t want to have kids yet at the time. And staff weren’t allowed to be on leave more than one week at a time.
I was meant to marry a specific type of person (full time material) and was pointed to certain sisters - and away from my now wife - and eventually told ‘this is the girl you should marry’.
I didn’t follow those orders thankfully. But did gain the disapproval and disdain of leadership for the same. And even had rumours spread around by other full time staff that my wife and I committed sexual immortality during our dating relationship (which we never did - not even impurity).
But I did follow much and do bullying of my own.
Much of the time I spent in the ICOC was to repent of the same and do what I could to create a healthy space.
Our separation from the ICOC within the last year was accepting that there’s only so much that can be done, not much has changed despite all the time gone by.
Yes, the spreading of rumors when a couple did not follow "advice". The same thing happened with my child (the one you know). So hurtful and pathetic. Sorry, friend.
Nuts that it’s still happening.
I remember this vasectomy thing - totally unknown at the time by French people and very popular in the US. Again the American culture in the church, “this is the way we do things!” “Oh it doesn’t work the same in your country?” No and if you had asked you would have known! By the way it was just mentioned to me, and in a lesson compared to Paul circumcising Timothy for the sake of the kingdom! Anyway you wouldn’t have touched me !!!
I look back at all the so called “advice” we were given as well, and it blows my mind that we went along with willingly because we trusted these people in the name of Jesus! But as I dissect it, I can attest that the leaders were discussing us and our family amongst themselves and then coming to us with their “advice”! Very “cultish” indeed!
So true. We were told what to do, so sad!!
Having a mission is in no way an indicator to what one has a right to regarding another persons' life. It doesn't matter who you are or how high of leadership you are. No one has that right. I am glad you put your foot down.
As soon as I read the title of this my testicles receded back up into my torso... well it felt like they did but maybe just my male sensitivity to the subject. I had a co-worker who had it done and he said they just treated him like a piece of meat and was sore for weeks after.
After we had a couple of children, for a while my wife wanted me to get one (like her dad did)... I stewed on it for a while and decided I'd rather not - we only had 2 children and did not know the future, I really didn't want to lose the option for more or (God forbid) should one of them die or something... I know it's weird but it was a thought... I wasn't living a Christian life at the time, this was just my feeling on it.
Anyway.. THATS INSANE! I never knew the 'leadership' would think it was okay to do something like that, it's like they never read the Bible. Having children (or not) is BY THE WILL OF GOD. It's by his design and not for us to mutilate our bodies to try and control his will or have someone pressure you/him into something like that. Not only do they want to control who you date or marry but they want to control how many children God will bless you with. The more I read about the goings on at the Kip cults, the more convinced I am that they are closer to a synagogue of Satan than a Church of Christ.
Glad Mark didn't get snipped - strange thing to say but there you go.
Whatever people believe on this topic, it is a very personal decision and should be left to the agency of the person.
No doubt. Can I ask what is the ICoC position on abortion, IVF, suicide & assisted suicide, etc? Not looking to start debate on it, but it never came up during my 'sin' study so just curious what their stance is on any of that?
I am not part of the ICOC so if you want to know what their stance is, you would have to reach out to them directly. Sorry I am not able to answer.
no worries, in retrospect my question should really have been if there was a unified position back around 2003 (when we left).
I suspect today I could ask 7 different branch leaders and get 7 differing answers, there appears to be is no definitive published public statement from any of the current Kip Mckean groups - maybe deliberate ambiguity...
What are your thoughts on divorce within the church? Should they be disfellowshipped?
I know someone who said their spouse was having an emotional affair with somebody so they decided to divorce them, and the church leaders said they could no longer be a church member if they divorced the spouse because it was not a good enough reason.
That is an excellent question. I do lot have a “doctrine”. I think every situation is unique.